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The Federal Acquisitions Regulations

I was going to write up some big rebuttal but I realize now we are arguing from very similar positions.1.) Developers don't understand what they are worth

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2.) The culture of 50+ h/week working is pervasiveI think the point where we disagree is about the optimal behavior from the companies POV. Based on the exclusivity of existing condition Mens Nike Cortez Leather

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ootachi 911 days ago link

campnic 911 days ago link

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When I worked at Boeing, the engineering union had negotiated that employees were to be paid overtime. I don't know if this only applied in Seattle (Washington is a union state, unlike most others where Boeing has employees) or not.

job if they refused to work more than 40 hours

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Can you cite a source on that? As a software engineer for a major defense contractor who works closely with other major contractors, I can say with some degree of certainty that being paid overtime is certainly not the norm, and 60 hour weeks aren't terribly uncommon during crunch periods. We have to report our hours accurately, but they've always been pretty clear that we're exempt employees and so they're under no obligation to pay us overtime. (They sometimes will, at a manager's discretion, though rarely is it 1:1 for hours worked)

ccoggins 911 days ago link

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The problem I see with many of these lines of thought are that they grossly over simplify the effects of situation and environmental factors. Even if there exists a comparable job with better hours, its existence doesn't always make it a viable alternative. Is being stuck in a mortgage or with a sick spouse license for an employer to demand you work 70 hours a week?

37.115 Uncompensated overtime.37.115 2 General policy.(a) Use of uncompensated overtime is not encouraged.(b) When professional or technical services are acquired on the basis of the number of hours to be provided, rather than on the task to be performed, the solicitation shall require offerors to identify uncompensated overtime hours and the uncompensated overtime rate for direct charge Fair Labor Standards Act exempt personnel included in their proposals and subcontractor proposals. This includes uncompensated overtime hours that are in indirect cost pools for personnel whose regular hours are normally charged direct.(c) Contracting officers must ensure that the use of uncompensated overtime in contracts to acquire services on the basis of the number of hours provided will not degrade the level of technical expertise required to fulfill the Government's requirements (see 15.305 for competitive negotiations and 15.404 1(d) for cost realism analysis). However it is formally discouraged by the government. Also, my particular employer explicitly discourages unpaid overtime and thus it doesn't happen often.

dtparr 911 days ago link

campnic 911 days ago link

Mind to edit your orignal comment to reflect this?notJim 909 days ago link

and, for the most part, people get out the door here in time for dinner (it's hard to say, because some people stroll in the door just in time for lunch). Making people work overtime here, paid or not, is a bad idea because it makes it hard to retain talent. I'd like to think that if there was an economic rationale for overtaxing our team, we still wouldn't do that because it's immoral. Even then the front line employees being whipped would be unlikely to get a significant piece of that pie, no?

pilom 911 days ago link

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Greenspun wrote that about a software consulting business, too. Think about what else has to be going wrong with a consultancy for it to make sense for people to work 70 hour weeks. worst. at reasoning about the valuation of their own work. Software developers think Stack Overflow is worth maybe a weekend's worth of programmer time because it's just a big message board. The world probably does look a lot more unjust when you look at it through a prism of discounting your own value by 50% 150%.

This is not true at all. I work in the defense industry and their is certainly not any law requiring my company to pay me for overtime. I think what you are referring to is the fact that any hours worked on contracts must be billed to the government. Say a company receives 1000 hours to do a job and an employee works on the project 80 hours per week. It does create an incentive for the company to encourage their employees to work more. If they charge for 80 hours in one week, but only pay the employee for 40 the company just made a bunch of extra profit at the employee's expense.

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Look at it from a mechanically rational perspective. Your protagonist has a mortgage and a family and we're on a tech message board so let's stipulate that this is a technology worker making the average wage for, say, a programmer in Grand Rapids, MI. Well, at 70 hours a week, our protagonist is effectively being paid $19.78 per hour. We work hard to keep them from happening Nike Cortez White Junior

pilom 911 days ago linkFrojoS 910 days ago link

eligible health care and collaboration by major tech firms to illegally collude to prevent competition for work, I don't conclude that it is a system which will fix itself. However, the only viable solutions I can imagine would be unpalatable to too many programmers to be enacted.

Long hours are the key to profitability, as Philip Greenspun put it:"From a business point of view, long hours by programmers are a key to profitability. A product is going to get out the door much faster Nike Cortez Black And Grey if it is built by 4 people working 70 hour weeks (180 productive programmer hours per week, after subtracting for 25 hours of coordination and structure comprehension time) than if by 12 people working 40 hour weeks (the same net of 180 hours per week).""If you see one of your best people walking out the door at 6:00 pm, try to think why you haven't challenged that person with an interesting project. If you see one of your average programmers walking out the door at 6:00 pm, recognize that this person is not developing into a good programmer."

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"Is there a 40 hour a week job out there that pays and furthers their career comparably?"The defense industry in the US is like this. It is illegal for a company to have employees work more that 40 hours a week without overtime pay. The rationale is:If Company A has a company culture of all employees working 60 hours a week and Company B has a corporate culture of working 40 hours a week, Company A could charge the government less for the same amount of work and thus would win more contracts. The government recognized this would create an customer incentive for companies to "encourage" their employees to work longer hours. So the government made a law that Defense contractor employees must be paid overtime for any hours more than 40 per week. And in my experience, no manager will pay overtime so most non manager level people really don't work any more than that.

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